Choosing Your Power, How to Breakthrough from Your Plateau & Become Who You Deserve To Be with Dr. Wayne Pernell on Episode #0061

Intro  [0:00]  

EA Interviews, Episode 61. Inspiration, transformation, success stories and the Imperfect Action Round seven days a week. Join Mario Fachini for today’s Expert Authority Effect Interview.

Mario Fachini  [0:13]  

Welcome Expert Authority world. I’m excited to have you here again today and be able to share with you another great expert and authority. Dr. Wayne Purnell. Have you ever gotten to your career and felt like you’re successful? Have you ever felt like you’re moving forward? And you’re already at the top? But maybe you had a plateau? Maybe you got stuck at the top? Do you feel like there’s more to it than just the finish line? Do you realize that there’s more to life than just the success? Maybe you feel stuck. Maybe you hit that plateau, but in your heart of hearts want to break free from that. Well, I’m excited to be sharing with you because we’re going to bring him up right after we thank the sponsor, and he’s going to be giving you the brake through and sharing with you how he gets all his clients past this. So we’ll see you right after the sponsor. We’re going to bring up Dr. Wayne Pernell. 

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Mario Fachini  [1:26]  

Here he is Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Wayne Pernell. How are you doing Wayne?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [1:30]  

Hey, Mario. What a pleasure to be here. It’s a great day to break through.

Mario Fachini  [1:35]  

Absolutely. I want to jump right into it. And I want to know a little bit more about your story. What inspired you to start your company and I have a feeling that it has something to do with the pizza?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [1:48]  

Oh. Yes, indeed. You know, some people know me doing I’ve had a great life up to this point. And I plan on having more. When I was about 42, I had already had some pretty good success behind me. And the thing is, that didn’t exactly mean I was happy. And there were a lot of things I was big out in the world. I felt really powerful out in the world. I was consulting with some major, major, major companies and at home things weren’t always so great. And my marriage was kind of a mess. I was on the verge of a divorce. I was looking at bankruptcy, there was a company that I was affiliated with, and I was just inches away from losing my job. I mean, so much was going on behind the scenes, but outwardly. You know, I look like I was powerful and getting things done. And I think a lot of times, we have have that going on for us those that want to make a difference. And this was again, back when I was about 42 years old. I just felt like I needed to get away to get my head straight. And I flew to my brother’s house, he’s 12 years younger, Jeff lived in Nevada. And I was sitting on his living room rug, I was on his living room floor and I was pulling at the strands of carpet rocking back and forth. And being 12 years younger, he never really could help me while we were growing up. So as adults, when I came to visit, he was so happy. You know, “Hey, brother. I’m so happy you’re here.” And he was bouncing all over the place like a little puppy, almost. And he was trying to jolly me out of this headspace I was in and I felt like, “Well, I’m just pulling up these strands of white carpet.” And you remember shag carpet, right? So I look up and I almost felt like saying, you know, “Hey, I’m trying to be depressed.” And he wouldn’t let that happen. He was like, “Hey, I’ll tell you what, let’s get a pizza. Do you want to get a pizza? How about pizza?” And I’m like, “Sure, sure, sure, sure.” And he bounces off into the kitchen, and picks up a phone book. So obviously these were back in the days when we had phone books. And he goes to the phone on the wall. Obviously, again, back in the days, when there were phones on the wall, he picks it up. And he starts to punch in some numbers. And he yells to me, “Hey, what do you like on your pizza”? And I go, “I don’t know, pineapple and olives.” And he was like, “Great, great. Okay, great.” And he, he continues to punch in numbers. And I burst into tears. And he looks at me. And he’s a little perplexed. He hangs up the phone and closes the phone book. And he comes over and he puts his arm around me. He goes, “Dude, it’s just a pizza.” And I look up at him. And I said, “I know. I know.” But no one’s ever asked me that question before. He looks at me. He’s like, “What?” I go, “Look, I gave you an answer.” That was the easy answer to give for when the kids wanted pizza. And they would all agree on that flavor, pineapple and olives for whatever reason. That was the easy answer. That was the go along to get along answer. No one’s ever asked me what I want on my pizza. And I realized in that moment that I was giving away a small choice. And if I’ve been giving away small choices, like what do I want on my pizza? What about the big choices in my life? And I was consulting with big firms, and I was meeting with some serious people. But what about having given away like big choices in my life, and it was at that point that I knew I had to reclaim so much of me. And that’s what really started me on my quest. I mean, yes, I have a background, my doctorate is in clinical psychology. And yes, I blended that with business early on. But I had really lost myself and this one question, What do you want? And what do you like on your pizza? That turned so much around for me and I began writing, I began consulting differently. I was more solid in myself. And so yeah, that’s what started me on this path. Because I knew if I got along to get along, I knew that other people had been going along to get along, too. And even if they look great on the outside there was stuff going on for them too

Mario Fachini  [6:59]  

How did you see start approaching them to realize you had that in common? Because you can’t exactly go up to someone and be like, “Hey, you look good. But I’m sure you got a lot of crap going on in there.” What was your approach to just start that conversation? Because I know you want to help them. But how do you, you know, essentially break the ice around that?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [7:22]  

Yeah. I think I really started asking different questions. You know, in addition to what’s going on in your business. It’s more What’s going on? How are you doing? And how are you doing in the different areas of your life? And I would start to ask like, “Were you successful in your business? And what are the obstacles? And how are you feeling financially? How are you feeling socially? How are you feeling at home and your partnership at home with your kids? How are you feeling spiritually, physically? And so I start to ask questions that we’re more rounded. And as people got to know me and know that it’s not a checklist, and it’s interesting, as a lot of consultants get that wrong. Well, let’s check through. Yeah, yeah, you’re great business wise, you’re terrible at home, and you’re, and you’re struggling financially good next. And it’s like, No, no, it becomes relationship based. And so what I started to do is to really become… because I became more me, you know, people call me Dr. P. Before that episode, I think people were calling me Dr. Pernell, Dr. Wayne Pernell, which is great. I mean, I earned the title. But I don’t need to be the doctor. Right? So became more Dr. P, or some people call me Dr. Wayne, or some people just call me Wayne. And it’s more relationship based when people work with me. And it’s about being friendly, and accessible and real. And when that changed in my approach, that changed in the response I got. And it’s huge. It’s huge, and makes all the difference in the world, I stopped trying to be somebody and that was a huge turnaround, and maybe a lesson for the audience. When you stop trying to be somebody, you’re actually let that part of yourself that’s in there. That already is somebody out. And that’s, that’s magical.

Mario Fachini  [9:32]  

So how did that make you feel? Once you essentially had that breath of fresh air to say, “Hey, I can let this weight off my shoulders and not have to fit into these boxes. I can order what I want.” What other areas did it start revealing to you outside of the pizza and business?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [9:51]  

Well, it’s great. I mean, I realized that I’d put away so much of my creative side. I also realized that there was a piece of me that in consulting with so many people over the years, that they had been aching, and I started to reflect on what they were aching, what were the main areas where they had their aches. And so part of what happened for me is the creative side of me, broke through. And that’s when I started writing. And I don’t know if you heard that I dropped one of my books, I’m going to talk about that, hopefully, maybe a little bit later. But you know, my first book, my baby is Choosing Your Power. And this really focuses on the nature of the struggle. And you know, the subtitle of this is becoming who you deserve to be at home and in the world. And it really is that breath that you talk about that is really a sense of finding your footing, and standing firm and standing up into yourself. And my process, I knew somehow, you know, when you’re going through it, you feel very alone. And somehow, in breaking through it, I knew that my struggle wasn’t unique. If it was happening to me, it was happening for other people that were hiding from it. And so that sense that you were talking about is really my creative side came out my desire to share with others came out my desire to share with more than just one on one and consulting happened. And wow, whole worlds opened up since then.

Mario Fachini  [11:45]  

What does it mean for your clients? If they’re in the same boat you were, and they just feel like Atlas with the weight of the world on their shoulders and everything. When they go through your training and your coaching and you’re working with them, how do they feel afterwards? What’s that transformation you can give them?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [12:06]  

So the breakthrough is really about finding the ‘next.’ A lot of times people get stuck or they feel stuck. And the sense of relief of, “Oh, there is a next” is a big deal. And you and I talked about prior to our call today, we had talked about what happens to somebody when they set a success level. And really that’s that’s what this is, is people very often have this measure of success. “When I get there. Oh, when I get there, I’m going to feel great. Everything will work out when I get there.” And people set their sights on this success place. And they work towards it. And they work towards it. And they work towards it. And sometimes that journey is five years, 10 years, sometimes 20 years. And when they get there, they wonder if that’s all there is. It’s like I’m here now is that it is that it? And so they live their lives unfulfilled. They feel like, “Well, I’ve worked so hard. And now that I have this C suite office or now that I have this amount of money in the bank or now that I have this car I’ve always wanted.” Whatever it is whatever the measure of success was, they feel like “Well, now that I have it, now what? Of course I have it.” And what they don’t recognize is that that journey that they took to get there, it’s the journey that changed them. It’s that journey that changed them so that that level of success, of course is going to be less than meaningful because they’re becoming more and more and more and more powerful along the way. That more and more powerful brings them to a point of standing on their mountain going, “Okay, now I’m at the top.” And that’s where feeling in the intro you reference this feeling stuck at the top comes through. And they do, they feel stuck at the top. Here I am I’m at the top, now what? And so what I do is I help them break through to their next. You’re not stuck at the top, you’re stuck just below the clouds. Because when the clouds clear, you’ll find that there’s actually another mountain top. And my work is to go look, let’s redefine your next level of success. Let’s take the values that you had that got you here, sort through them, and take them to whatever the next is. Right? So we defined together and that’s I think the answer to the question is, you know what do I clients feel? They feel this sense of new life reinvigorated like, there’s something worth working for again, there’s something worth putting my spirit, my vitality, my life back into, again, because it’s not the prize if you think about any success you’ve had. It’s not the prize. You know, I’ve got awards and plaques on the wall and things like that. Those aren’t the prize. They’re the reminder of the journey. What did it take to get there? You know I’ve run three half marathons in my time. And I don’t remember necessarily being given the medal. What I remember is a half marathon is 13 miles, right? And so what I remember is, I’ve clearly remember the self talk I had at mile nine, which is I’ve run nine miles, I’ve run nine miles. I don’t know if I can run anymore, to Oh, no, no, no. You’ve run nine miles. What lays ahead is four miles. Dude, you know how to do that. And I remember that as part of my journey. Yeah, the race starts now. And that’s part of it. That is all part of it. So the feeling of “Okay, I’m back in it. I am back in it.” And people feel feel revitalized. You know, the retreat I have, it’s coming up in in 10 days at this point. And today is the last day, I’m actually closing registration today. So if anybody wants to join me in San Diego on April 12, and 13th, stuckatthetop.com, we go through the breakthrough stuff. Stuckatthetop.com is a great place to get some resources and some ideas about what are your breakthroughs. But this is it. This is like, this is how to get your breakthrough. Think about anything you’ve done, what have you worked on? What have you worked for? And what has gotten you to that place? And then what’s next?

Mario Fachini  [17:12]  

What I’m hearing there is a lot of, it’s not that you’re stuck at the top, it’s that you’re perfectly positioned to go to the next level.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [17:24]  

That’s so true, right? And I did want to say I mentioned a date, there’s a waiting list for the next one, by the way. So it won’t matter what time listeners tune into this or viewers tuned into this. And it is true that you’re perfectly positioned to get to the next place, what happens is, people forget that there’s a next place. Or to look even further. I’m sitting down, you saw me lean in that was I didn’t want to spill water. So I’m being very transparent with you right here. So yes, what happened is, my clients when I work with them, and even in reflecting on my own levels of Wow, what’s next? How do I get there? That struggle? That is so important. Because when people feel the struggle, they feel like, “I don’t know if I can, I don’t know if I should.” And the other part is, I work this hard to get here and how come I’m so unfulfilled? You know, Mario, I have a kind of a saying that I use which is, and some people find it almost off putting and other people find it very interesting. And that’s this, ‘I live my life happily dissatisfied.’ I live my life happily dissatisfied. And what that means is that if I paused my life right now and looked around, I go, “Wow, I am lucky. I am blessed, I am happy.” The things I have in my life, everything is so good. And it’s, you know, compare that to other people. And really, it’s not about comparing to anybody. Because if I looked at others and go, “Wow, so many people have so many more things than I do.” There’s that. But if I pause my life, right here I go, “I’m happy.” And knowing that my life isn’t on pause, I look forward and I go, you know what, but there’s more. There’s more. There’s more for me to do, there’s more for me to have, and more important there’s more for me to serve. And that’s where I get happily dissatisfied. It’s like, I know that I’ve reached this far, “Oh, there’s so much more.” Right? And so happily, dissatisfied is not a bad thing. It’s not something that’s like, “Oh, you shouldn’t quest or or you shouldn’t be dissatisfied at all, you should be happy with what you have.” That’s right. I’m happy with what I have.

Mario Fachini  [20:11]  

But you shouldn’t be content with it either. Because like you’re saying, you know where you’re at right now, this is one of the things I think about. Where I’m at right now? Yeah, I’m aiming for something down the road. But I just hit a couple of my own milestones. And it’s like where you’re at right now is what you were dreaming a year or two ago, six months ago, three months ago. And when you get to that point where you start helping a ton of people and speaking and doing different things, you realize there’s so many more people you can help. So if you do have a true servant’s heart, you’re always thinking, “Hey, I can do this, I can do this.” You know, maybe it’s local than its regional, then its national, international, global. You know, there’s people, you just start having a bigger vision and a bigger picture and realize there’s plenty of work for the next hundred years that we can be doing it as long as it’s not about you.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [21:02]  

It’s so true. It is so true. That’s right. And that is part of what keeps me going. And when I work with my clients, it’s exactly that. So sharing that with them and and engaging at that level. It reignites that spirit in them. Like yeah, that’s almost like… I guess I use spirit in into sense of the word like there’s a greater connection. But also, there’s a spirit, almost like a fighting spirit, like, “I’m in. I’m in, let me at it.” And to see that life come back to people that have been just finding their way along, just finding their way along. You know, in one of my books I talked about, some people live their life just trying to get through day to day, with the reward of dying at the end of it. It’s like they live their lives very comfortably and quietly, hoping just to get through the day. That’s not a life to me. Right? And that’s what I hope to inspire in other people is, that’s not where life comes from. It’s what can you do for other people? How do you lift other people up?

Mario Fachini  [22:15]  

One of my favorite things that I’ve seen before it says, “Don’t live the same life 75 times and call it a life.” And so many people do that. And what the stuff you’re saying you take your clients through, touch on one of your biggest success stories with one of your clients.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [22:37]  

That’s great. One of my biggest success stories, I think was in doing some executive coaching, to have him talk about not only learning how to speak with… he was a senior senior leader, and yet there were people above him. And he was having some trouble in getting through to the people above him. So I talked with him about how to gain more confidence and how to gain influence, even in going up the chain. And in working with him he was also talking about how his communication skills had improved. And that was improving his communication with his kids. And he was talking about one of his kids, and I was listening and I was like, “Don’t you have two?” And he pretty much, you can hear him smile and sink back and give us a sigh. He was like, “Oh I can only have so many weekends, till that one goes off to college.” And so really the success was to recognize that he was growing in so many ways that the aspiration of climbing had left him sort of blinded to the other part of his life. And so I call it a success when I can help people really integrate their lives. It’s that to me, because that is heart based. That to me is where it counts. When someone can have this ambition; I want to climb, I want to do this in my profession, that’s great. At what expense, right? And so, do that and reach back and make sure your family’s with you, make sure that the people you care about are still there. And bring them first, I think. So that was one of my biggest successes was having him be able to extend up. But also make sure that he gathered his family close along the way.

Mario Fachini  [24:52]  

I’m glad you’re touching upon that. Because I’ve said the same thing to my clients for years, as far as don’t be so successful in one area. You know, you’re a winner in one area, but a loser in the other. Because at the end of the day ultimate success. And I love saying this about peak performers because they’re like, I’m a peak performer. I’m a peak performer, I’m a peak performer and all this and it’s like, yeah in one thing but the other nine areas…

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [25:16]  

Exactly.

Mario Fachini  [25:16]  

You’re severely dropping the ball. I came up with this years ago. And if you want to go into it on episode 18, it’s called FEMSPR; financial, emotional, mental, spiritual, physical and relational. And the priorities I have are God health, family business in that order. And when you have those in alignment, the other stuff, it’s not always going to be perfect. It’s not going to always be roses and unicorns, or whatever the analogy is. But at the end of the day, you can go, “You know what, maybe I only worked with five people this week,.” You know, in whatever capacity, maybe it’s 500, depending on whatever. The point is, you can feel confident I did my absolute best with the people I’m working with. And because I’ve noticed a lot of people, they’re like, “Oh, there’s all these people that need my help.” It’s like, “Yeah, so does your family.” And you just gave away 23 hours with these 23 randos, and meanwhile, your wife’s contemplating if she should stay with you, the kids want nothing to do with you. And it’s like, “Where’s the priorities for this?” And I’m not saying don’t help the people. But there’s different ways to do it. And it’s why, you know, I’m glad you did your books, you do your speaking as do I, because there’s great ways to leverage that to get to the people because you only have so much time. And I’m really, really glad you’re sharing this with people because I feel it’s so important. So speaking of your books, and speaking – speaking of your books, and speaking, let’s dive a little bit into your, your training,

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [26:56]  

My training or my books? What I do?

Mario Fachini  [27:02]  

Yeah. I say training, the book and the training. I mean, I’m not expecting you to take us through a 12 week course or eight week course or whatever the case is. But let’s dive into your book a little bit deeper, and the topics you speak to your audience. One of them I wanted to highlight was the watch words you were telling me about.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [27:26]  

Oh, those watch words. You’re gonna love this. You’re gonna love this. And and I get so reinvigorated, just even talking about them. So in choosing your power, I go into… this is a relationship and self empowering book, this is about how to build better relationships. And it’s good for leaders too. A lot of times when people look at it and go, “Oh, well that’s a self help book.” The truth is, if you want to be a powerful leader, you have to be really good in relationships. And if you want to be really good in relationships, you have to be super solid in yourself. And that’s, you know, when I was talking about the whole thing about pizza and finding out how much I’d given away and gone along to get along? It was that I was pretending to be a leader, I wasn’t very solid in myself, my relationships were very shaky. And a lot of that was my fault. You know, a lot of that was… it’s you know, relationships are two sided. And you have to be able to show up at 100{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81}. Relationships are not 50/50. Relationships are 100/100. They have to be. You have to be present. And so when you were talking about walking people through your process, you know, one of the things that I did at home was I recognize that… I used to have one of those fancy electronic watches that would buzz and give me alerts. And on the weekends I’d be checking my watch. And my wife at one point said to me, “Do you have somewhere to be?” I’m like, “No, no. An alert just came through.” As if that was more important than paying attention to her. And she calls them my imaginary friends. Like your imaginary friends can wait, you’re here with me. And from that point on, every Friday afternoon, I would take that watch off and put on a different watch or not wear a watch at all. And these days, that’s been a couple of years, and I haven’t worn an electronic watch in a couple of years now because I don’t need that. Right? I need to be present. And so does everyone watching this. You need to be present. There’s so much pulling on our attention and our time. And so when I wrote Choosing Your Power, it was about how do you live more into yourself. And in it, I talked about relationship. In it I talked about communication. In it I talked about how to find your path back to freedom. One of the things that I do in the book in the communication chapter is to talk about these 10 watchwords. There are 10 key watchwords, and Mario, if we’ve got time, I’ll I’ll share three of them with you.

Mario Fachini  [30:33]  

Okay, go for it.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [30:35]  

Good? Okay, and I call them watch words, because these are words to eliminate from your vocabulary. And if you can, if you can almost eliminate them.

Mario Fachini  [30:46]  

Okay, you need to do at least five of them. Because now I’m curious. There’s a few I’ve been working on that I’ve heard, if I’m missing any on to make sure I get them. So.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [30:57]  

Alright. Alright. So let me walk you through the top three. And I guarantee you that if you do this, your life will change really seriously. Things will change in your relationships. The first one, you know, there’s all this talk about start with why, start with why. And that is perfect for you to understand what your why is, at the same time, like you need to know what drives you. What’s the value? What are your personal values? That’s the why, internally. That said do not start any sentence with why. That’s a big one. If I said, “Hey, Mario, why are you wearing a red tie today?” The only way to start the answer to that is ‘because’ and that immediately puts you on the fences. Right? Instead of I said, “Hey, Mario, what do you like about the red tie versus the blue tie?” Or, “What do you like about wearing a tie at all?” That’s a conversation. Not Why are you wearing a red tie? And so I think what happens is, that at home, or at the office, if you’re working with team members or subordinates or even upline, people accidentally end up pushing others away when we mean to actually be inclusive. And what happens is we use Why – Why that? Why do you do that? The other thing is at home, if anybody’s got kids or older people in the house that act like kids, it’s not unusual to say, “Well, why are your jeans on the floor?” And the only real answer to that is my jeans are on the floor, because that’s where I took them off and gravity kept them in place. That’s not the answer.

Mario Fachini  [33:01]  

Because that’s where I want them.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [33:03]  

Right. And, so if we if we get to a place of going, all right, it’s sort of like, “Well, why are their dishes in the sink?” It’s like where I left them. And, again, gravity kept them in place.

Mario Fachini  [33:17]  

Would you rather they’d be on the kitchen floor?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [33:19]  

Exactly. Right. So there are two ways of responding to a why question. And you just gave the second way, which is great. The first way is where most people go, which is, what’s the right answer? Because I’m actually meant to do them. And so it’s almost like they enter a place of placation now.

Mario Fachini  [33:40]  

No one in their right mind actually wants to do dishes.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [33:44]  

No one wants to, but they show up. And you know, it’s like, “Oh, I don’t want to make you mad.” Right? So that’s placating. The other side of that is what you did, which is well, would you rather they’re on the floor, which is what I call the obstreperous adolescent response. It’s basically saying FU without saying it. Right?

Mario Fachini  [34:03]  

It’s the FU response with the N at the end. It’s ‘fun.’ I mean, you could put dirty dishes anywhere you want around the house, back patio, the garage, the garden.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [34:04]  

It’s true.

Mario Fachini  [34:13]  

But they belong in the sink. That’s their home,

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [34:17]  

Well who left them there? Darn it, right? And so what happens is there’s this parental kind of tone, that instead of being an adult, we jump into parent and we get the child answer. And that’s what happens. And so it would be better is to ask, we eliminate why. And we start to ask what or how questions. “Hey, since we all live here, what would it take to keep an empty sick?” Like you paint a picture of what you want versus why did you do that? Why do you wear… you know, again, back to engaging with you? Why do you wear red tie Mario? So instead, it’s like, “Hey. You wear pretty fun tie. What about the red one made you want to wear it today?”

Mario Fachini  [35:05]  

Because it was on.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [35:07]  

There you go. Right. So because I wore it. The whole point is you get a different response. When you ask a what or how question. If I ask a why question it creates… when anyone asks a why question, it creates this one down sort of feeling. And it is a fight starter, it really is a fight starter. And so I really suggest that you eliminate why and start substituting what or how, with a little bit of curiosity. Right? So you’ve got this ‘I wonder’ versus why that happened. Now if you’re an engineer and need to figure out why a dam broke or whatever, that’s why that’s what I call it a watchword and not eliminate this at all costs. And when you’re reflecting on your values, and why is that important to me? And why is that important to me. That’s a great process. When you put it on yourself like why did I do that? Why did I do that? That’s not a great process because again, you are condemning yourself the same way if you said “Why did you do that?” To someone else, you’re condemning them, you’re you’re judging them. And so if you want a better relationship, start with what or how. So watchword number one is why. Ready for watchword number two?

Mario Fachini  [35:21]  

I very much am.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [36:39]  

Okay. All right. So I’m going to pick on your tie again, here we go. So watchword number two is ‘but’ and if I said, you are wearing a red tie, but I’m choosing not to wear a tie today. It sounds sort of judgmental. Most people think in terms of what most people have heard about ‘but’ which is true is that it negates everything that comes before it. Most people don’t think in terms of how judgmental it also sounds. And there, you know, in America at least, and very often in other cultures too, we find conversation, a competitive sport. And we will break, we’ll wait for someone else to take a breath. And then we jump in. “Yeah, but… but…” then we ‘but’ the other person, so that we have the floor and it pushes them out. So but is sort of blameful also, it sort causes a little bit of shaming or one up one down. And if I substituted the word ‘and’ it creates this inclusiveness. And it’s if I said, “Oh, you chose to wear a red tie, and I chose to go without a tie today.” That’s a conversation. That’s not a judgment. You wore a red tie, but I didn’t wear a tie. That’s a judgment. Right? So you can get the subtleties that come through. Also, when I was working with a manager, oh my gosh, this is a this is a great one about how it negates what comes before it. So this manager is trying to give a pep talk to his team. And he’s like, “All right, you guys. So July and August, were really great months, but we have two weeks left in September.” And I’m a consultant, I’m listening to this. I’m thinking, I don’t know what that means. July and August, were great months, but we have two weeks left in September. And is he trying to say we should do even better in September, or we sucked in September? like it didn’t actually… it wasn’t a good month, like I didn’t know what he was trying to say. I talked to him afterwards, he was trying to give a pep talk. We’ve got two weeks. What I taught him was in the future, use the word and instead of but and listen to the difference. July and August were really great months, but we have two weeks left in September. And listen to what happens if you put in the syllable that you can barely even recognize and substituting but with and – July and August were really great months. And we have two weeks left in September. And it totally changes the meaning of, “Wow, we can do it.” Right? It changes that meaning from confusion and maybe September wasn’t so great to “Wow, we can do it again.”

Mario Fachini  [39:42]  

Yeah, the first time you said it, “But we have two weeks in September.” I took it as, “But we have two weeks left in September to hit our goal and make sure we have a successful September just like we did with July and August.”

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [39:56]  

The ‘and’ underscores that. There’s no confusion at all, July and August were really great months and we have two weeks left in September, which really gives a parentheses of “aAnd let’s go.”

Mario Fachini  [40:08]  

And we can do it, without a doubt is going to happen.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [40:11]  

Exactly. Exactly. So the but thing is one of those where it is so prevalent in some offices I’ve suggested having what’s called a but jar. And people will cut each other off with ‘but yeah,’ ‘but’ and it’s very dismissive. ‘But…’

Mario Fachini  [40:29]  

What do you think of ‘actually?’

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [40:32]  

‘Actually,’ it can come with so much attitude that your tonality counts so much. “Well actually, I’m smarter than you are.” Is what it sounds like, right? So you have to be really careful when you use that. Kids are notorious for using it when they learn it. “Well actually, it’s this.” I really think that it is. I think that it puts people… So I it’s not one of my watch words, and at the same time…

Mario Fachini  [41:10]  

Thought you’re aware of it.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [41:11]  

I would actually not use that word. So ‘why’ is the first one to eliminate, ‘but’ is the next one to eliminate. And the third one is ‘should.’ So Fritz Perls, who was the founder of Gestalt Psychology back in the 60s, said that ‘shoulds’ are poop, and there’s no reason to should all over yourself or anyone else. Got that? There’s no reason to should all over yourself or anyone else, “You should do this, you should do that.” And here’s where it comes up the most, is family gatherings is when you feel it. Oh, by the way, he called these ‘should-ers.’ And you know, you’re shoulding on yourself when they come up around your ears, “Oh, I should have done this, I should have done that.” They’re sort of defensive. And they’re also they’re also stress based. So in family gatherings, there’s a lot of should, “Oh, you should have called first.” “You should have been here sooner.” “You should have brought green beans instead of potato salad.” And the truth is you can’t should have anything now. You can’t should have done anything right now. And so the best thing to do is to point out, “Hey, it’s past the time, you said you’d be here in the future. If you know you’re running late, would you please call me, that’d be great.” So that’s one of the key things is, is ‘should’ does nothing for you except to blame you and blame the other person. If you’re looking for a way to put the other people down in your life, then sure go ahead and use ‘why’ go ahead and use ‘but’ go ahead and use ‘should.’ My suggestion is that you eliminate those for a week and see what happens to the conversations that happen at home.

Mario Fachini  [43:23]  

Yeah, it depends. Are you trying to win friends and influence people or lose friends and alienate people?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [43:29]  

Exactly, exactly.

Mario Fachini  [43:32]  

Glad you shared that because words are powerful. And you got me off. I’m like, really noticing what I’m saying now I’m like, but or any of it. But people don’t realize all the stuff they say and how it makes a difference even the tonality? Like, “Hey, what do you think of the new microphone?” “Oh, actually, I don’t care anymore. Why  did I ask you?” It’s, you know, because you have Person A going I’m trying to share an accomplishment and someone else just sitting there fact checking the crap out of it. It’s like, if you’re doing a book report, I get it. Or maybe you’re making a mechanical part for a car that needs to be stress test to a 2000 degrees. So the thing doesn’t blow up when the families driving in it, but when you’re having a casual conversation over a barbecue?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [44:26]  

Yes.

Mario Fachini  [44:27]  

Maybe perhaps just be a little more conversational nicer.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [44:31]  

And with ‘why’ I have cut down on relationships, there were some significant relationships that I no longer have with certain people who live their life in the place of why.

Mario Fachini  [44:46]  

Just questioning everything…

Mario Fachini  [44:49]  

In a negative way.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [44:49]  

Exactly.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [44:51]  

Well, it sounds negative. They don’t think it’s negative. And yet that’s because that’s the way they live their lives. To them, they just want to know, I just want to know, but even that the tonality is you know, you don’t just don’t want to know.

Mario Fachini  [45:06]  

You’re interrogating me. I think you were you work for a different country. You’re just claiming all this you almost need a spray bottle of water. Just when they start talking. They’re like what do you spray me for? It’s like you needed a bath because you’re clearly dirty minded. So you need to clean off or either that just sprite to get them away from you. I know exactly who you’re… I’m going to pivot because I don’t want to accidentally say the names but I totally get it. And it is that powerful. You know, why did you have a great week this week? I don’t think there’s anyone going, “Oh, I sold X amount more units.” It’s maybe you help more people, but it’s like what really, really, really was it? And it’s like, “You know what? I wasn’t around so and so and they didn’t bring me down.” Or maybe the group of so and so… You know, most people like the weekend because they get to have fun, and they’re around the people they want to be around when you can do that every day. Yeah, it’s a game changer.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [46:04]  

Isn’t that amazing? That’s huge. That’s huge. That’s the other thing about stuck at the top. And really, I mean, the whole idea of choosing your power is to land solidly in yourself. The whole idea of Stuck at The Top is to recognize you’re not stuck, you get to create the life you want. And I did a thing on, remember when the lottery not that long ago was three quarters of a billion dollars, at least in the United States. I don’t know what some of the international viewers may not know about the Powerball here for the United States. We have this Powerball that was 750 million dollars. And my thinking on that was there’s so many people who were thinking, “That’ll change my life. That will change my everything.” And the truth is, while that money would change your life, you have to think about what it would change it to?

Mario Fachini  [47:03]  

It would just reveal who they are, not changed it.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [47:05]  

It would. What do you want, like a lot of people go, “Well, I want to be able to do this and this and this and this with my life.” And my question of them is, what are you doing now to create that for yourself in the future anyway? You don’t wait for something to drop on you to start creating that life you want. “Yeah, when I’m done punching a clock and going to work, man, everything is going to be great.” Working for the weekend. That’s not a life. Right? Love what you do. Love the people you work with. Create that, start there. And Mario, you asked me one of my messages. And clearly that’s the one that’s coming through right now. And I’ve done that with executives, I’ve done that with entrepreneurs, I’ve done that with people who are stuck in this place of ‘I just want.’ It’s like you want what? There’s a saying that goes the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time – right now. And so really, what are you planting so that in the future, it is growing to be the thing that you want it to be? That’s the magic, that’s where you actually reclaim your life. It’s huge.

Mario Fachini  [48:21]  

Yeah, you can start that at any point in time. My first goal in business when I went full time in 2008, I just wanted to own my calendar, because there was so many times I wanted to go to a leadership event, a training event, a marketing event, whatever the case may be, and it was, oh, I gotta you know, ask for time off. I’m like, this is my life. And the second I was able to say, what do I want to do with my day? It changed everything. Because that I mean, you can’t put a price on that if you make all the money in the world and don’t own your calendar, you don’t own your life. Exactly. I mean, that’s the most important thing. I’d say that should be everyone’s goal. One, to say hey, what would you do with 24 hours on hundred and 68 hours a week, you know, 365 days a year. So we’re going to go to the Imperfect Action Round right after we thank our sponsor, and we’ll come back for the 60 second rapid fire questions. 

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Mario Fachini  [50:25]  

Alright, everyone, we’re back for the Imperfect Action round. Dr. Wayne, are you ready to take Imperfect Action?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [50:34]  

I love that. I talk about perfection. And again, back to my book, Choosing Your Power. I talk about perfection and imperfection and how people have flaws and what I call the perfect flaw. That’s what makes us human. It’s awesome. So people search for perfection and like it’s out there. And instead of looking in the mirror and going, Oh, that thing, that thing called ‘me,’ perfect. And always developing that thing. So developing yourself, so that, perfect flaw, anyway, yes. Talk to me about what? What are we going to do rapid fire?

Mario Fachini  [51:10]  

All right, 60 seconds or less. Imperfect Action, these are steps that people can take right now to get progress in their business today. So the first question is, what is the fastest path to the cash you found in your business?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [51:27]  

You know, the fastest path is really identifying your values now. And identifying a target and determining do your current values actually match that target? So many people are like, “Well, I want a million dollars, or I want $10 million.” They’re shooting for this thing, when what they value is time freedom. And the question is do you really need a million dollars to live the life you want? Or $10 million? Or is that it? And do you value something that is also holding you back? So the fastest way to get that is not an actual step. Like I mean, the actual step would be go through your phone and make some calls, you know that’s a step, the first step of any of it is to make sure that your personal values are aligned with your target.

Mario Fachini  [52:22]  

Love it. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way they can fix it?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [52:33]  

That they’re living in the past. And they don’t know it? So a lot of times we’ve always done it this way. We’ve always done it this way. Well, that’s great. And what got you here won’t get you there. So good for you, you know, you got to this level of success. You stumbled, you fell you got back up, you skinned your knee, you healed. That’s awesome. Now what? So recognizing that what got you here like, “Well, I only know this.” That’s not enough to get you to the next place, you have to either learn something new, or do something new. And usually it’s a combination of both in order to get to the next place. So the biggest mistake is not to recognize that there’s a discomfort that you have to welcome.

Mario Fachini  [53:24]  

I like it. Number three, what have you done to maximize your customer lifetime value?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [53:32]  

Oh, sweet. Yeah. So my customers become my friends. And that’s really whether they are daily life friends, or whether they’re people that have my books, or whatever. I am giving to them new content, I have my Facebook page facebook.com/WaynePernell. I’m doing daily Facebook live videos on giving content constantly. And when it’s time for people to re-engage with me and do one on one coaching or come to the Stuck at the Top retreat, they will reach back out to me. But mostly it’s I treat them the way I would want to be treated like here’s what here’s the information, here’s something you can use. Here’s, hey, I was thinking about this, maybe this resonates with you. And so I’ll give them a little something along the way. Sometimes it is a physical gift if I know that somebody has been working on something and they could use just a little boost. Mostly it’s information, stay connected. That’s the biggest thing.

Mario Fachini  [54:40]  

That’s good, like you’re talking about keep that relationship going.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [54:43]  

It’s all about the relationship.

Mario Fachini  [54:44]  

Well, I like your answers. And the last couple I have for you are, what is the biggest book that’s made the difference in your life?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [54:58]  

There are there are several. The one, it’s an interesting answer and it’s a little corny. And I will tell you it’s not the answer you probably are thinking about or want. The book that’s made the biggest impact in my life is Choosing Your Power. And it’s because it’s my baby. It’s because it took me 40 something years to actually write it. Right? When I sat down to write it, it was about eight months to a year to actually produce it. But really to get me and my experience and my words and my essence like everything I believe into it. So the book that made the biggest difference in my life is the first book I ever wrote. I have five books up. Along the way there are other ones. Certainly there are other ones. You know, there are very good books out there. But I will say Think and Grow Rich is certainly a good one.

Mario Fachini  [56:07]  

That’s one of my favorites too.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [56:09]  

Yeah. Yeah, it’s all you know, the magic of thinking big.

Mario Fachini  [56:14]  

Love that one. Just recommended that to someone last week.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [56:16]  

That’s awesome. Right. So there are books out there that have made very positive impacts on me.

Mario Fachini  [56:22]  

Very good.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [56:23]  

Right. And I’ve got to go back to that one. It’s like, that’s my baby.

Mario Fachini  [56:27]  

I can definitely relate to that with the first book I did because there’s things I kept in it and everyone in the world is, “Oh, you should fix this, you should change it.” And I’m like, nope. The other ones I make sure it’s proper, but I’m like, I’m kind of not touching this one. So I appreciate you for sharing your answers with the books. They’re all good answers. Where can people find you? And why don’t you let them know what you have for them?

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [56:52]  

Oh, sweet, very good. Well, associated with this interview is my name, you can see it Wayne Pernell. If you go to WaynePernnell.com, you’ll be able to look around, you’ll be able to see the books, you’ll be able to see the blogs that I write, you’ll be able to see so many of the resources, I have online courses as well. The blogs are free, the books are there. The ability to work with me one on one, that’s there. The ability to contact me through a contact form that’s there. If you liked some of the watch words that I talked about, and if you want to if you want to buy… my English all of a sudden stop working. If you want to learn a little bit more about getting more solid in your relationships, I have this freebie. It’s a 15 page giveaway for you that you can get relationshiprecharge.com Can you see that?

Mario Fachini  [58:04]  

Yes. And I will make sure there’s a link in the show notes also.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [58:08]  

Good deal. If you go to relationshiprecharge.com, you get a 15 page download. That really does go into what makes a really good relationship. How do you revitalize it? And this could be with your partner or could be with somebody you work with? Typically, relationship recharges has to do with your partner. And I really want you to think about it. Think about the words you use. Think about your presence. How focused are you on them. So remember, WaynePernell.com, and that’s where you can look around and relationshiprecharge.com that’s where you’ll get the free 15 page guide. Seven Steps to a more vital and vibrant relationship.

Mario Fachini  [58:57]  

Excellent. Well, I appreciate it. Dr. Wayne. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [59:01]  

It was a lot of fun, Mario. Thank you.

Mario Fachini  [59:03]  

Yes. I know it’s been a long time coming. But I’m excited to go through your free checklist report myself because I do like the watchwords, and I will make sure there’s a link in the show notes. So thanks for coming on. It was a pleasure having you. And we’ll see you soon.

Dr. Wayne Pernell  [59:20]  

Pleasure to be here. Thanks, Mario.

Mario Fachini  [59:21]  

All right, everyone, another great episode. I’ll see you on tomorrow’s episode. Have a great day and God bless.