Achieving Superior Sound with Show Host & CEO of Clean Cut Audio Tom Kelly on Episode #0096

Intro [0:00]

EA Interviews Episode 96. Inspiration, transformation, success stories, and the Imperfect Action Round seven days a week. Join Mario Fachini for today’s Expert Authority Effect Interview. 

Mario Fachini [0:13]

Mission Control, do we have lift off here? Mission Control, do we have lift off? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? I’m doing this deliberately because today we’re going to be talking about audio. And you probably heard a difference when I’m talking over here, right? – what’s going on? I see Tom in the green room over there – versus if I’m talking over here, and you’re going to go, “What? The microphones not sounding great.” I got it. We’ve been working on it. And that’s why audio is so important. And that is why I’m excited to have Tom Kelly on the show today. From a personal letter from Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs, he has worked with people helping them clean up the audio. He’s the CEO of Clean Cut Audio. And we’re going to be discussing why it’s important to not have a bad microphone. Not sound bad. Not look bad. And the important things that go into your podcast which he specializes in. He’s been helping me when I was starting off the show. And I’m super excited to have them. We’re going to bring him up right after we thank our sponsor. 

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Mario Fachini [1:30]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Tom Kelly. Tom, how are you doing today? 

Tom Kelly [1:32]

I’m good, man. I feel great after that introduction. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 

Mario Fachini [1:40]

I’m excited to have you here. Like I was saying, because I remember it wasn’t too long ago when you were going, “Wow, I like what you’re doing this and that.” And we’re talking audio. We’re talking video. And I just appreciate what you’ve done. And I’m great grateful to have you here and share with Expert Authority World because there’s so many people out there that – I mean, we’re talking about beforehand. I even made a joke about it on the intro. There’s been plenty of people who are telling me your guest audio sounds great. I’m like, that’s great. They got their $40 microphone. And good thing I spent all this money on mine. But what inspired you to get into this? I know where you’re at. Now, take me back to the beginning. 

Tom Kelly [2:19]

Of podcasting itself or audio? 

Mario Fachini [2:22]

Your history. 

Tom Kelly [2:24]

Oh my, gosh. My history was I started off playing in bands at 12 years old. I was a very ambitious young child booking shows at the state colleges. And did that until it was ready to go off to college. I figured I had to do the whole American dream of go to college, get a great job, have the family, all that stuff. So I wanted to pursue the only thing I ever really loved and that was music production. And more specifically audio production. So I did a four year degree in that and quickly realized upon graduating that possibly the American dream is dead. I graduated with a ton of debt, a four year degree, and I was applying for jobs that of course were entry level that required five years of experience and paid $12 an hour. So I knew I had to come up with my own plan and try to figure it out for years and years just recording friends bands on the side for a little extra cash. Doing some voiceover work for friends, short films, working in live music venues, doing live music streaming with local production companies. And when I was working at a wood shop about four years ago, I discovered podcasts and really fell in love with them. I was obsessed with them. I listened for nine hours a day. And I noticed that many of them sounded really, really bad. And I just thought I can do something about this. 

Mario Fachini [3:58]

Let me ask you about that. When you say about “bad,” because there’s varying degrees of bad. Let’s dive a little bit deeper to identify because I know there’s people listening going, “Well, mine sounds great.” I love it when people are like, “Mine sounds great. And my camera looks great and all this.” And it’s like, compared to who? Compared to your last one? Probably. Because the sun’s at a higher point in the day and because you’re using natural lighting. And there’s different degrees of that. So when you say “bad,” what are you listening for? What’s something that anyone can listen for to make sure they’re not replicating that? 

Tom Kelly [4:34]

Yeah. It is a really interesting concept when people say mine sounds great, because the problem that I run into is a lot of people don’t know how to hear, which sounds like a very strange concept. But when I was in school, we sat in a in a $5 million studio blasting white noise, you know – and for hours at a time and they said, “We did something to the sound? Tell us what it is.” And we had to say, it sounds like you boosted 248 hertz by three decibels. And that’s what we did for hours day after day after day. And it’s called ear training. And it’s learning how to listen to something and objectively know if it’s good or bad. And a lot of people don’t – I mean, I work on it every day on. I try to remain humble, it’s a lifelong journey to perfect. But so many people haven’t done that. So when they say it sounds good to me, where’s their baseline? And that’s what you’re saying. I could watch a brain surgeon and say, “Man, he’s killing it.” But he could just be cutting that dude up and I would have no idea because – 

Mario Fachini [5:44]

No. He’s actually saving him. 

Tom Kelly [5:47]

Like, I’ve never studied brain surgery so he could be doing anything. So what I’m listening for is, can you hear the room that they’re recording in? Ideally, all you want to hear is the speaker itself. But there’s the tiniest bit of room noise, any audio engineer will hear it. You’ll hear the phase cancellation issues, which is a very interesting concept that we won’t get into now. A lot of psycho acoustic stuff, tonality in the voice itself. A lot of nuances that to a lot of people probably don’t matter. But to audio engineers and probably subconsciously to a lot of people, it really does make a difference on how you process the information you’re listening to. 

Mario Fachini [6:35]

Well, I appreciate the insight on that. Because a lot of people out – you nailed it – with the subconsciously. When I was studying photography and videography years ago, I remember, I think, it was Van Gogh’s Starry Night. And people always talk about that one. And one thing I remember about it was he painted to keep your eye intact. So if you look at the painting, there’s a bright point over here that connects up and it goes around with art. The goal is to get you just going deeper and deeper into the center of it with the highlight colors and the dark colors and everything. The same thing with web design, eGraphics. Especially when I’m publishing books for people, I see a lot of people, they put a cover image of their book and the image is pointing – do you ever see graphics where they’re literally looking off the page or off the screen? And it’s like, “Oh, what’s over here?” Nothing. The same thing you want to keep them interested with the audio. It’s the same thing, do you know what you’re listening for? Because with 3D animation, with video, with even a photograph, if it looks bad, you know. But you might not know why. The example I always give is, if you see a photo with too much blue in it or too much orange, I know that’s the Kelvin and the color temperature. But people go, “I don’t know. I don’t really know what about it but I just don’t like it.” Well, that’s why you don’t like it, doesn’t look natural. So what are some other things that people can listen for? You’re talking about the rumoring and you definitely don’t want that. And I’m glad there’s some features to take a sample of the room and remove it. But I tell you to get a better microphone to begin with. What are some other things that people should be listening for? 

Tom Kelly [8:24]

I just put a video out on my YouTube channel a couple days ago and it’s highlighting the difference between a local recording and a recording that’s processed through a VoIP platform, Like Zoom or –  that’s really the popular one now. And I think just podcast, a lot of them just use Zoom so that becomes the normal. But when you have a local recording, meaning the signals going right from my microphone onto my hard drive, there’s no processing through the internet in between them, it sounds like that person is sitting across the table from you. And I don’t think that the importance of that is really emphasized enough because a lot of people say they like podcasts because they feel like they know these people. They feel like they’ve lived with them in their house for four years because they listen to them when they’re doing the dishes. And when you don’t have that crystal clear local recording, it kind of breaks that illusion of these are your friends who you hang out with all day. And it’s a degradation of quality. Like, if you’re looking at your favorite portrait and it’s a little bit blurry, that’s kind of what you get from a VoIP recording. And I think, again, it’s a lot of its subconscious. People don’t know what they’re missing or they don’t know why they’re having a hard time really focusing on what you’re listening to. And it’s because they know it’s this thing that’s gone through all these cables, and the internet, and all this stuff. People want to feel like they’re there. And I think the easiest way to give that to them is making sure you are recording, for example, you open GarageBand and hit record. That’s a local recording. Rather than getting what Zoom or Zencastr or even Squadcast provides you, if you’re familiar with those platforms. 

Mario Fachini [10:23]

So what would you recommend someone do first, get a good microphone with some real rejection on it, hypothetically negative 40 decibels, or pad an entire room to cut down on the room noise? 

Tom Kelly [10:40]

Your signal chain, meaning everything that comes in contact from your voice all the way to the recording, everything in your signal chain is dependent on every other piece in there. And it’s only as strong as its weakest component. And everything starts with the room that you’re recording in. So if someone says I have $300 to spend, should I get a $300 mic? I’d say, get $150 mic and put $150 worth of sound panels in your room. Because the greatest most expensive, most regarded microphone in the world can sound just as bad as a $5 microphone if it’s in a bad room. So I definitely think the most important component is the room. But there’s a lot to be said for a killer microphone as well. And if you put a lot of thought into how you pair the two and how you invest your money, you can get a really, really great sound for even probably less than $300 actually. So I don’t know if that answers your question, half room, half the microphone. Ideally the best of everything, but that’s not always an option for everyone. 

Mario Fachini [11:52]

I like that one. I like that one. For sure. And it does answer it because a lot of people say – you know, I’ve seen a lot of people say I’m going to pad a room and this and that. And they’ve got a $5 microphone. It’s like holy smokes, upgrade the mic before you spend $1,000 on acoustical paneling. Conversely, you could have $1,000 mic and be sitting in a warehouse. And that’s stupid. 

Tom Kelly [12:17]

I was at an audio engineer meetup in Denver where I live, and we were running, maybe, an $80,000 signal chain through the nicest tube preamp into a Rupert Neve board that’s like a $15,000, four channel mixing board. And it sounded terrible because it was in a warehouse. You could hear the traffic from five blocks away. It’s just you can make something very good sound very bad or vice versa with a little bit of education. And that’s what I’m hoping to bring to the industry, for sure, that little bit of education that everyone needs. 

Mario Fachini [13:02]

Well, you’re definitely given some good value to Expert Authority World. Tell me about what you’re doing with your clients and who are you helping and how are you helping them? 

Tom Kelly [13:10]

Yeah. So most of my clients are business small businesses. I have a lot of authors and people who have a very important message. And they know it’s their job to make themselves heard. But they, maybe, don’t really know exactly how to do that in the best way. For example, the authors, they’re doing a podcast mainly to sell their book. And they want to be the expert authority. So they know they need their show to sound great so that they don’t lose any credit points for less than perfect audio. So they hire a producer to make their show sound great so that they can interview other people in their field, raise some awareness for themselves, and ultimately sell the book. So that’s my most of my clientele. A little bit of small business, again, selling their product. But the people that I really want to work with are people who are trying to change the world and people who really care about audio. Because I’m a pretty vain person. I could admit to that. I want to work on shows that sound great, that perform well, that have a lot of listeners. I’m very invested in their product. So I want to work with people who will help me help you, that kind of vibe. Those are the people that I want to work with, want to help and are open to suggestions. And really, sometimes bending over backwards to get great audio. I mean, you got to work for it. And I want the people who are willing to work. 

Mario Fachini [14:45]

I think that’s a good point. Because I’ve said the same thing. I want to work with the best of the best because that’s the standard. I hold all my stuff to. And it’s interesting because so many people say, “Well, it’s so hard blah, blah, blah.” Look at any Olympian star athlete, music, movie star, anyone, it’s like why do they get the lion’s share of everything? Because they’re the best and they’ve trained themselves to be the best. And that’s what you’re talking about. And I’m going to have a kind of a jokingly question for you and me, but at the same point I know people think this because I get asked this myself. Well, Tom, if I already have the best of the best mic and Mike and Mogami gold wires and all the best of the best stuff, what do I need your help for? What’s left if it’s already the best? How do you help them? 

Tom Kelly [15:39]

I could have a Formula One car that does zero to 10,000 in the fastest speed but I don’t know how to drive the thing. The equipment doesn’t – it’s not going to do the job for you. And I’ve certainly had clients who thought, “I already bought the Rode Procaster or the SM7B, why doesn’t it sound great? “And when a podcast is done being recorded, that’s where my job begins. I need to mix that thing so that it’s loud enough but not too loud. And the EQ is perfect so it has the most natural tone so that people really do feel like you are right there with them. If your AC accidentally kicked on halfway through, I can get rid of that in about half a second. And a client might not even know where to begin. And I think, ultimately, why people actually do pay me is because, for example, the author, their job is to write books not produce a podcast. So the best thing they can do is keep writing books. So rather than them spending six hours a week producing their show, they get all that money back. And I can do it in an hour because I’ve been doing it a while. So my clients are trying to get time back and I’m that tool for them to get all that back so they can keep doing what they’re supposed to be doing, the thing that they’re using the podcast to promote. 

Mario Fachini [17:13]

That’s very well said. And if you can point me in the direction of how you can produce a show in six hours a week, that’d be fantastic to do. 

Tom Kelly [17:22]

Well, you are – 

Mario Fachini [17:23]

I think I’m up to, maybe, six and a half or seven, let’s say. 

Tom Kelly [17:27]

I think you’re an edge case on overall production for your show, for sure. I don’t think I can do what you do in that short amount of time. But keep doing it over and over and over and over and over, you know, put your 10,000 hours in and it’ll just be second nature. And that’s – 

Mario Fachini [17:50]

But you’re doing what’s most important for the podcast is the audio. 

Tom Kelly [17:54]

Right. Yeah. 

Mario Fachini [17:55]

And a lot of people I’ve noticed don’t – I mean, it just boggles my mind why they won’t even invest a couple hundred in a microphone. Or just – I’m not going to give all the scenarios of I’m like, how have you been doing this for three or four years or whatever. But it’s just like, if this is what you really want to do, you don’t need to do much. It’s only audio. And I’m not saying it’s only audio like it’s a bad thing or a downgrade. I love doing other interviews because all I have to do is turn on the mic. Not 37 lights, all the switches, and costumes, and all kinds of stuff. It’s just one thing you have to be concerned with, audio. Get it right. Check out Tom. Learn how to do it proper. And don’t do it wrong for four years, whatever you do. Because I have you on the list and I’m going to be checking next year and you better not be doing it the same because – holy smokes – a whole other thing. So with all the people you’ve worked for – oh, I said so. Oh, no. We got over edit it so it’s perfect. Otherwise no one will listen. I’m going to leave that in there. I don’t care. With all the people –  there was an um, that’s bad too. I better stop killing the show. With all the people you’ve been able to help, what’s the biggest transformational story that you could tell us with one of your favorite clients?

Tom Kelly [19:20]

Favorite clients? Early on I had the opportunity to work with the host of the podcast that totally changed my life. The Mixergy podcast hosted by Andrew Warner. It is a entrepreneur interview show with, like, 1700 episodes or something at this point. He’s been doing it a while. And that was the show that I was listening to at the workshop that made me realize like, “I’ve been an entrepreneur my whole life. I didn’t really know what the word meant.” But this drum set – you may or may not see behind me – I mowed lawns for two years and slapped $1,100 down on a counter at the age of 12 to buy that drum set. And I was hosting car washes and I convinced all my friends to work for free so I could buy a plane ticket from Pennsylvania to California at age 13. I mean, this podcast opened up my world when I realized I don’t need to work at a job I hate. I can make my own. And it kind of came full circle when I met him at Podcast Movement in 2017, in Anaheim, California. And I reached out, I said, “I love the show. You’ve helped me a lot. I’d love to meet up with you.” We chatted and we kind of got into the nitty gritty of his audio because it was not great. And I thought I could help. And he hired me to do some consulting work. And I came up with a really easy systematized approach to make his audio as he put it marginally better. That’s all he was looking for. And he has his VAs doing my process now. And he was really, really grateful. To me, I still think there’s a lot of room to improve and I think he knows that. But it felt really good to give back to the podcast that I feel gave me everything. And I feel like podcasting gave me everything. It gave me life. It gave me hope that I could use my skills and do something beautiful with it. So now I’m on a journey to just make everyone’s show sound better to give to give back to the medium. 

Mario Fachini [21:33]

Do you think there should be any standards for what type of mic someone should be using or for the show? What should everyone’s chief aim be? If they don’t want to drop $1,000 on a AKG microphone. And they don’t have a soundproof studio. They want to do video but they don’t have anywhere to shoot in. What should be at least a, “Here’s how you separate yourself from the other nine out of the ten podcasts out there.” And you can do it for, I would conservatively say, I think you’re pretty much right, 200 to 300 bucks one time. 

Tom Kelly [22:08]

Yeah. Yeah. This is something I wrestle with a lot. Because people will pin me as a gearhead or an audio snob or whatever. Because it honestly breaks my heart when people recommend that ten people sit around a table and talk into their phone or talking to your Apple headphone- microphone. Which getting on this show, you very clearly had minimum requirements. And I love that. That made me so happy because the thing that makes podcasting beautiful is there is really no barrier to entry. There’s no gatekeepers. So anyone can really do anything. But should everyone do anything? I wish there were minimum requirements. I wish that there was some manual vetting process where if your audio wasn’t good, you’re not allowed to make a podcast. There’s a part of me that wishes that. But I know deep down in my heart that the show that changed my life sounded terrible. But I suffered through it because content is king. And that’s what people say. But man, I wish, I wish I could pull shows that didn’t respect audio. But that’s just me. I know that that’s not right. But my head goes there sometimes. 

Mario Fachini [23:35]

Let me ask you, why isn’t it right? Because if you’ve invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in 20 years and 30 and 40, 50 years of your life. I’m going to challenge you on this because I’ll say I was a little bit more forgiving when I started this. It’s not like it was ten years ago. But I’m different now. The more I do, the less I tolerate of just mediocrity. I’ll say that. 

Tom Kelly [24:06]

I don’t know if it’s just to save face so people don’t think I’m a jerk. But

Mario Fachini [24:12]

Were just having a private conversation right now. It’s just us. You can say whatever. There’s no one listening or watching. This isn’t live on six different destinations. 

Tom Kelly [24:22]

So the thing that I think of a lot is, when I really wanted to get into archery, I bought the most inexpensive recurve bow I could find. Because I just wanted to dabble. I just wanted to see if I liked it. And I spent weeks trying to get a small enough group on the target. And I couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong. And then I went out with a friend who let me use his bow which was several thousand dollars. And I was getting really, really tight groups. And all of a sudden archery became way more fun. And I was chasing my tail not having a good time because I had a tool that was not really meant to be that good so I wasn’t that good. And I’m the kind of person that if I’m not killing it, like I’m not having fun – I’m not a sore loser. But I like to do well. I like to work hard and see the rewards from that. So I put that same concept into audio, you could try to get the cheap $17 Walmart microphone and then get frustrated that you don’t sound good. But if you just bought the right tool the first time, it would probably be a lot more fun. Because if you’re like me, you want to be good at something. So it will just be easier if you get the right thing. And in podcasting, I mean we’re blessed, man. I recorded on $18,000 microphones when I was working in music. If you had less than $4,000, you weren’t getting a microphone that was considered good. The fact that a podcasting microphone – I mean the SM7B, the microphone that you have, the RE-20. The fact that the gold standard is $400, podcasters are the luckiest people in the world. So I think that people should be aware of their fortune with how relatively inexpensive podcasting is and really try to just do a good job, especially if you want people to listen to you for an hour a week. I mean, if you have a post on Instagram, you’re lucky if you get a-second-and-a-half from someone. On podcasting, you want 60 minutes and you won’t give them the effort to make it sound as good as it possibly can, to me, that’s disrespectful. But when I try to lay off a little bit, I understand everyone’s just either trying to have fun or doing the best they know how. 

Mario Fachini [26:46]

Well, now they know a better way and now it’s not the best they know how because you’re telling them the right way. So listen. 

Tom Kelly [26:52]

I think this the standards all together need to be raised a bit. The culture of podcasting is to see how little you can do and get away with it. It’s kind of like a hackathon is the way I try to put it into words. But I think that we need to start at the top. You know, the $400 SM7B should be what you aim to achieve. And if you can’t afford $400, what can you get for 200? Rather than starting at the $17 mic, get the best thing you can first. That’s just me. I’m always trying to get the right tools so you only have to buy once. 

Mario Fachini [27:36]

I agree 100{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81} and I’m glad we’re having this conversation. I’ll say I was looking at the SM7B. It’s a great microphone. I’ve used it for voiceover. It sounds fantastic. I will tell everyone who is listening, I am on the Heil PR-40. Well, why would you get that, Mario? Well, I don’t know if you’ve noticed but it’s got different colors. You want the truth? It looks better for video, honest to God. And I think it’s maybe 5{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81} more geared towards my voice. There is a slight difference. They’re both phenomenal. Now, for the person who’s listening going, “Well, I don’t want to spend -” okay, fine. ATR2100. Also good. Just make sure the mic is dynamic. Let’s go there. Tell me about dynamic mics and condenser mics. 

Tom Kelly [28:26]

Let’s go there. I love condenser mics. I have – 

Mario Fachini [28:30]

For podcasting? 

Tom Kelly [28:33]

With a disclaimer, if your room doesn’t sound killer, a condenser might not be the right thing for you. 

Mario Fachini [28:42]

It might not. It definitely doesn’t because it sounds bad. I’ll say it. I’ll say it. Because I have one. If you look at Episodes 20 and below, they’re all on my original condenser mic. And I will tell you

get a dynamic. Unless you want to spend a ton of time and post editing it to make it sound way better. 

Tom Kelly [29:04]

So I was talking to Chris Curran about this. We were at the Outlier Podcast Festival in Denver last week. Because I just think condenser mics are better. The responsiveness. There’s something about it that can’t be replicated in a dynamic mic because of the physics of how the microphone is built and how it captures audio and how it converts that analog to digital signal. But most people are not sound conditioning, let alone soundproofing their room. So the condenser mic, I think, it can get you a better sound with a lot of work. But it’s ultimately less forgiving. And that’s why a lot of podcasters say, “Just get a dynamic microphone. Just get a dynamic. Don’t worry about it.” And a lot of people rag on the Blue Yeti. And for no reason other than to be a contrarian and because I know better, the Blue Yeti can sound right. I mean, my co-host uses the Blue Yeti. USB plugged into his computer. I’m using an SM7B through an Apogee Ensemble interface, which is upwards of $3,000. It is a very nice signal chain. And I worked with my co host to – again, hackathon is the perfect word for this. He takes encyclopedias, builds a book for it, throw sweaters in it, put a pair of his wife’s nylons over a hanger, and shove that in a toilet paper roll as a windscreen. And it sounds weirdly great. It’s not perfect. But I’m not encouraging people to do this because I was just speaking outwardly against this. But if you have the ability, you can make it work. But I think the thing is, most people don’t have the ability. They aren’t reading this book I have next to me, Master Handbook of Acoustics in their free time. That’s just not their hobby. So it is easier to do a dynamic, sure. All concede, get a dynamic microphone. But I love condensers or ribbon microphones, more than anything for sure. 

Mario Fachini [31:15]

I was actually going to bring up the ribbon mic as a joke. For podcasting – let me caveat that. And the other thing – I’ll throw in – if you’re thinking about even considering doing video, you don’t want to have to have a box with all kinds of different stuff. You need something – this is probably the one time in the show I’m not going to joke around. Because the same thing with the mic flight, a lot of what I did was for the video experience of the episode and I’m going, “I don’t want to have to try and replicate it.” When you can screw it bolted down and just turn it on, that’s what you’re going for. Not, “Oh no, the coat hanger bent.” It’s like spend the 20 bucks on the pop filter or, in this case, 60. Whatever it is, plan on doing it for 1000 episodes. It’s like $0.10 an episode. 

Tom Kelly [32:07]

You’re absolutely right. Everything changes when you’re on video. I mean, when I record my show there’s no video. I have this chair, like, fully laid back. It’s pitch black. I’m wearing sweatpants. Maybe not wearing a shirt. Everything, the stakes are raised on video for sure. So if you’re doing video and you’re trying to look as good as you do right now, yeah, you’re not putting your stuff in a book for full of sweaters and stuff. 

Mario Fachini [32:32]

I’m not saying I’ve never taken a tissue paper or done stuff to make stuff look better or sound better. And I think overall, what we’re getting at is, start where you are. And we’re joking about it now but it hasn’t even been a year and there was no mic flag. There was no other mic. I’m thankful because I will say start where you are but have the mindset of I’m going to improve. I’m not going to back down from, don’t do your show wrong for four years. That’s just stupid. No matter what you’re doing, ask for Christmas gift if you don’t have the mic money. That’s at least a year, not four. But at the same point, don’t let it stop you. Because I’ve used condensers. And I was thinking about this for my alto saxophone. I play alto and tenor sax. And I was actually looking to get in the SM7B for vocals and music. Because I would – correct me if I’m wrong – but that one’s better for both, isn’t it? 

Tom Kelly [33:37]

It definitely works on both. Audio engineers get creative with their mics and some will say this is not for instruments. They throw it on an instrument and it sounds great. The SM7B definitely would make an alto sax some pretty nice for sure. 

Mario Fachini [33:52]

I’ve had a couple people say -look up Lee Waters. Jen was seven – he’s in the first ten. And he worked with Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston. He’s done – not acoustical engineering – sound production. And he said he remembers Michael coming in the studio and guess what his favorite mic was? The one you’re on. Absolutely. 

Tom Kelly [34:17]

Yeah. That’s their claim to fame. All of Thriller was recorded on the SM7B. But I mean, it’s unique for everyone’s voice too. I’m in the middle of trying to acquire 51 different microphones for the ultimate podcast microphone shoot out. I have so far five companies on board to send me more gear than they should ever send any stranger just to show people that – a lot of people ask, “What mic should I get?” And I think the wrong thing to do is just give them an answer. Because every mic sounds different. Every voice sounds different. The two need to be paired perfectly together in order to get the best sound, if that’s what you want to achieve. A lot of people don’t really care .So there’s some care that needs to go into mic selection. And I think for Michael Jackson, in that case, the Sm7B it was just working it. But someone else could record the next greatest pop album and the vocals might fall little bit flat because maybe the SM7B wasn’t perfect for them. So different strokes, I guess. But it’s interesting. 

Mario Fachini [35:27]

Let’s talk about the wiring. 

Tom Kelly [35:29]

Sure. 

Mario Fachini [35:31]

Mogami gold, I got it. I love it. Do you think it makes a difference? Or do you think you could just get any old wiring like other people have told me? 

Tom Kelly [35:40]

so I’ve built my own cables before. I definitely invest in the higher end ones because, I mean, if you look at my desk and there’s stuff everywhere that can cause interference. and the last thing you want is little digital signals coming in through your cheap microphone Cable. A lot of people will say get the cheapest one because it doesn’t matter. it does matter. I mean, of course it matters. I sometimes wonder if when a podcast is compressed down to the sample rate that it is to fit Apple’s specifications, what really ends up mattering when it gets compressed that much? Most people, I’d say 99.9{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81} of people, wouldn’t be able to tell if a my cable was switched. But objectively better is better. So if you can afford the better stuff that is going to be rock solid, gold plated, has all the coding and the insulation for interference, just get it. It’s not going to do you wrong. 

Mario Fachini [36:51]

Okay. Cool. I didn’t know that for the last six months and I’ve gotten mixed reviews. My mindset was, I want to focus on the guest and being the best host I can. I don’t want to have to spend another week researching mics, wiring, blah, blah, blah. So I just got it. Plus, it looked cooler. And that’s the truth. I figured if I’m investing everything else, why am I going to skimp on 30 bucks on the cables? 

Tom Kelly [37:18]

You mentioned something about taking the time to research, that I think is really interesting. Because there was this huge debate on one of the podcasting groups. People love to argue over which $20 microphone is better. They’re all bad. But anyways, someone was like, “I’ve been researching which mixer to buy for a month. And I don’t know what to get.” And my friend, Cody, was like, “Get what you can afford and spend a month learning how to interview better. You’re investing your time into the wrong thing.” And I like that you said you could do all the research on a mic cable over the difference of $30. Just get a mic cable and get back to what you should be doing, which is producing amazing interviews with great video quality. And people get buried in the minutia. And it happens to me sometimes too. And I realized it’s because I’m procrastinating from focusing on the thing I should be focusing on. So you can’t get it started until I have the perfect my cable. But just get the best thing you can afford. I mean, that’s really my philosophy. 

Mario Fachini [38:25]

You can always upgraded later. You can always – I set it as a goal. I didn’t let it stop me. And it was interesting because the night before I went to launch the show, I ordered everything you’re seeing now. It was a fun thousand dollars. But it was the night before, I ordered it, I launched the show, and the stuff arrived the next day. And I was like, “I can’t wait to do the next grouping.” And interesting enough this is the first time I’ve even admitted it and no one’s even noticed the difference. I was like, everyone’s going to hear a sound better and look better and all these different things. And when I do the interview next Tuesday – because the show launched on a Friday and it was the weekend. And I go, “When I do the interview and blah, blah, blah -” and no one was like, “Oh my gosh. Did you just switch your mic around and the cables? You got the Mogami gold with the Heil PR 40 and the PL2T Boom Arm?” No one noticed it. 

Tom Kelly [39:22]

And they probably never will. 

Mario Fachini [39:26]

But I did. And some people have noticed hearing me and looking like if they know what’s going on. But again, it’s like that photo, it’s a little blue. It’s a little orange. I don’t really know why it’s not perfect. But I just know something’s up with it. If you know, you’re asking. And if you don’t know, you just go “Wow. It looks and sounds good.” So get back to the interviews. Get back to the guest. Lead with the best and it makes it easy. So the last thing I’m going to ask you in this section before we go to the Imperfect Action Round, you were talking talking about the mixer, audio interfaces, mixers, USB, XLR.  Oh my. Let’s talk about the XLR versus USB mics. And what happens if you go with an XLR mic, which I’m leaning into for the audio interface /mixer because this is another point of contention a lot of people are asking about. 

Tom Kelly [40:21]

Yeah. I’m 100{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81} team XLR into an interface. I don’t understand the podcaster obsession with mixers. Necessarily, for me in my upbringing, I guess, mixers were for live music. And interfaces were for recording. Now, I understand some people have live shows and they want to plug their guests and they don’t want to do a whole mix minus thing. Sure a mixer is great. But in my opinion, when you get an interface, almost all that money is going towards the preamp. Because interface doesn’t have many features. It’s a preamp and some gain settings. So when you limit the features, you get better preamps, theoretically. And when you get a mixer, you know for the same price, I’d argue it’s a lesser sound quality because you have all the faders and the potentiometer and all the things you can play with. And a lot of people think they need the mixer because they want to have control over the audio. And what I’ve seen is when I work with clients who have a mixer, something gets loud and they throw that fader down, and then they slowly bring it back up, and the audio is all up and down and up and down. When I could have had my plugin control that in post. I don’t think mixers are as useful as people think. And if they’re inexperienced, it’s actually a detriment to have something to fiddle with. I set my gain on this interface three years ago and I haven’t touched it. Like, set it and forget it is how most podcasts go down. So for that reason, again, take away toys from the inexperienced so they have a better success rate. I’m 100{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81} team interface. I’ve done kind of a shootout between the ATR 2100 XLR and USB. There wasn’t much of a discernible difference. But I think that’s because people are usually running the XLR into a budget interface anyways. So what’s that phrase? Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Again podcasting, it’s pretty in terms of audio low fidelity anyway. So those really, really high detail differences aren’t really going to come through too much. But I’m a fan of separating everything as much as possible. Because rather than having one unit that does everything, it’ll do everything like kind of okay. But if you separate – the Blue Yeti, for example, it is a microphone, it’s the preamp, it’s the interface. It’s all that stuff. So it’s going to do everything just kind of okay. But if you have a microphone whose only purpose is to be a microphone, a preamp whose only purpose is to be a preamp, and an interface, you can’t even separate it out with a word clock and AD/DA converter. The more specialized you have with every component, theoretically, it’s all going to be better. So that was a super long way of saying, again, get the best thing you can afford. Always aim for XLR. USB will get the job done. But I don’t think it will ever be as good as just a really good XLR signal chain. 

Mario Fachini [43:49]

That was a great answer. And I’ll add in, depending on how frequent you’re doing your show, with mine being daily, I realized I couldn’t spend a week editing it. Now, even if you have that week, I’d urge you not to take a week editing it. So the other thing is when you get the right mics, the right wires, and you’re doing the best to begin with, I can tell you it will save you 55 to 85{d1d47f886dfada3fbec120c845cf21cbf2de07a46032aee93c7c36510b4a5e81} of the time in editing. And what is that worth? I built and designed a whole computer around this to save me extra time. And I throw a lot of extra things into it and it’s going great. But what is your goal? What is your chief aim? What are you trying to do with it? And I remember it’s interesting you bring up the ATR 2100 because I actually was thinking about that when I got my 2i4 Scarlett here. And I was going, “I wonder how would the ATR2100 would differ from USB to XLR?” But then I’m like, “Well, XLR, you’re going to need the audio interface.” And then I’m going, well, by the time you buy this and the ATR 2100, you should just get the SM7B or PR40. So it was kind of that moot point of like, if you spend an extra 50 or 100 here, you’re now in a whole other category for this. And I will say, I like the audio interface because it has knobs and you can just turn them. Especially if you’re doing video and you need to make quick adjustments on the fly, you want this stuff ready to go. You don’t want to have be popping through 15 different softwares to be controlling it. Well, I’m excited to bring you back for the second half. We’re going to thank our sponsor and come back for the Imperfect Action Round. 

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Mario Fachini [45:55]

And we are back with the Imperfect Action Round. Tom, are you Ready to take imperfect action? 

Tom Kelly [46:02]

I don’t know what I’m getting myself into. But let’s go for it. 

Mario Fachini [46:05]

Yeah. I don’t know either. I’m just making this up on the fly. It’s my show. So whatever goes, we’ll see. First question, what is the biggest problem – no. That’s the third one. First question, what is the fastest path to the cash? 

Tom Kelly [46:22]

Whoo. In terms for a podcaster or what I’m doing? 

Mario Fachini [46:29]

Yes. 

Tom Kelly [46:32]

Wow. Okay. I’ll go with my route. I went from zero clients in podcasting to self-employed in less than a year. And I did it through professionally writing other people’s coattails. That’s something I’m very good at. Climbing a ladder to the people I want to get involved with and then clinging onto them for dear life. And yeah, I got clients by finding bigger producers in the fields and proving my knowledge and skills. Rather than trying to find 20 clients of my own, I found three producers and combined and got about the same amount. And I think networking is definitely the best thing you can do and be part of the community and put yourself out there as an authority in the field, if you are one, and see what you can do for other people and what they can do for you in return, I guess. Sleazy as that sounds. 

Mario Fachini [47:30]

Excellent. No, it makes total sense. You always want to be adding value and you gave a killer point there.  Because so many people are like, “I want 100 clients.” It’s like, “Why not find five or ten influencers that will lead you to that hundred?” That’s a lot easier – anyway, that’s a whole sales seminar that I’ve done before but we’re not going to here. If you want to know more, ask me. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way they can fix it? 

Tom Kelly [47:58]

I think the biggest problem is just that the medium is flooded with misinformation and just bad information. And they’re kind of following hearsay on this, again, this $20 microphones better than this $25 one. I think people really need to find the professionals in the field. And if they want to know audio, don’t ask your cousin who’s half-brother does a podcast. Ask a audio engineer. I mean, I do a lot of free consulting, I guess. I just talked to people and help them figure out how to get the best sound. And I think if they started on the right foot with a great sound, it would ultimately lead to faster growth as they’re not turning away people who are picky about the sound.

Mario Fachini [48:46]

Number three, what is the best way to maximize customer lifetime value? 

Tom Kelly [48:58]

I figure there’s a lot of angles to go with this. I think the more value you can provide to someone, the better. I know a lot of people, when they signed a contract with me, I clearly state what I do and what I don’t do. And I break it all the time because I want to help people. And I know that there’s all these weird kind of reciprocation principles that goes along with that. But my clients stick around because I, personally, always go above and beyond. And I think if you’re a podcaster, on the other side of the table there you should always be giving your audience more and more and more and not always asking for more and more and more. Just be a good person and try to help people. 

Mario Fachini [49:45]

I love that. And I agree wholeheartedly. There’s a lot of people going, “Well, I gave you $1, why don’t you give me 100 back?” It’s like because you gave me $1, you’re not buying the Taj Mahal with this. But thanks. Be a giver, not a taker. I agree wholeheartedly. What is the book – one of the best books you could recommend to Expert Authority World? 

Tom Kelly [50:12]

How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Rocked my world, man. It was recommended on the Mixergy podcast. And I’ve always been someone who’s kind of nervous, shy, little socially awkward. And I knew that in order to get where I wanted to go, I needed to be hanging out with people who have done it and who have proven themselves to be the authorities. And I didn’t know how to get in a room with them. And that book – gosh – it was just like an action plan. Do this and you’ll get what you want. And I mean, I think we mentioned it earlier, Mike Rowe, the voice of Ford Motor Company, of Dirty Jobs fame, wrote me a letter of recommendation for a job. There’s no way that the two of us should be in the same storyline. But by following some of the details laid out in that book, I made it happen. And it really gets you in the same room with some interesting people. If you really take that book to heart. 

Mario Fachini [51:15]

Well, you deserve to be there. And that’s why it happened. And the book is a good asset. But you definitely deserve to be there because you know what you’re talking about and I know you help a ton of people. 

Tom Kelly [51:25]

Thanks, man. 

Mario Fachini [51:25]

Thank you for the recommendation though. I’ll make sure that makes it into the show notes. And last question, where can people learn more about you? And I think you were telling me about your new course. 

Tom Kelly [51:36]

Yeah. So people can find me at CleanCutAudio.com. That’s my production company. I just launched the new website a couple days ago. I’m still finding a few typos in there. But that’s part of the process. And yeah, there’s a new course teaching people who are in other mediums of media production how to take their skills, expand on them, learn all the intricacies of podcasting, and get themselves a career in podcast production because it is a goldmine right now. And a lot of people have things to say and they need people to help them make it heard. So I’m trying to help people be able to provide value and get some podcasts out there. So I’m really excited about that for sure. 

Tom Kelly [52:22]

Excellent. Well, Tom, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for coming on and sharing with us. I’ve enjoyed it. And I know they have too. All right. Expert Authority World, we got another great episode. I look forward to seeing you on tomorrow’s. Have a great day. And God bless. 

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www.EAInterviews.com [52:52]

Hey, thanks for listening to today’s episode. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I sure did. If you haven’t done so already, I invite you to subscribe to the show. And also be sure to check out EAInterviews.com for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I’ll see you tomorrow.